Seeing The System In Toxic Relationships with Carine Van Hee

That late night thought, “Was I too much?” can feel like the final verdict on a relationship. But what if the confusion wasn’t evidence that you’re broken, and was actually part of the pattern that kept you stuck?

We sit down with Carine Van Hee, survivor, visual artist, and author of *Is It Me? The Hidden System Behind Toxic Relationships*, to make the invisible visible. We talk about why toxic people are not toxic all the time, how the relationship can swing between safety and threat, and why that inconsistency fuels rumination, shame, and self doubt. We dig into the “fairy tale” beginning, the slow drip of boundary pushing, and the push pull dynamic that can reel you back in just when you’re ready to leave. Along the way, we name familiar tactics like gaslighting and silent treatment, while staying grounded in what they do to your nervous system and your sense of identity.

If something feels off but you can’t prove it, you’ll hear practical ways to create breathing room: pausing before you respond, noticing red flags like constant mental replay, and getting support from people who truly understand toxic relationship dynamics and narcissistic traits. We also get real about recovery: therapy, meditation, self care, and why setbacks don’t erase progress once you’ve seen the system.

If this resonates, share it with someone who might be quietly asking “Is it me?”, and please subscribe and leave a review so more people can find this conversation.

Transcript

The Question That Haunts You

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Dear listeners, today I definitely want to start with a question. Right? There is a question that actually haunts people. I mean, it's long after a relationship has hurt them, right? Quietly in the dark. They ask it about themselves like, is it me? Was I too much, too sensitive, too difficult? Maybe if I did just tried harder, it's one of the cruelest. It's one of the cruelest things about a kind of relationship that slowly takes you apart.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

By the end, you are not even sure that who did what to whom. Good to think about, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

And you just know, like, you don't recognize. You don't recognize yourself anymore. And maybe almost no one tells you that the confusion itself was a part of it. Like how it worked. So hey dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine. I'm your host, Avik, and today the conversation is I would say it's a tender one. Like it's very important. For me, I it is very important, and I believe um there are a lot of people who you are also looking forward to it. So we are going to talk about the hidden patterns which is inside the relationship that harm us. Not to assign blame or something, but just to make the invisible visible. We have to just make sure from invisible we take it to visible part. Because once you can see the system that you are caught in, you can finally stop blaming yourself for being caught in it. Right? So if you have ever asked yourself, is it me or is it really me? So then this episode is for you. And today we have a very, very lovely guest with us who

Meet Karin And Name The Pattern

SPEAKER_00 2:05

carries this from lived experience and from craft. So please welcome our guest, Karim Van He. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Thank you so much, Avik, for having me and for bringing light to this complex subject as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I'm really happy and I'm really very curious as well. So Karine, like I mean, before we get into the discussion, I'd quickly love to introduce you with all the listeners. So dear listeners, Karine is a survivor, a visual artist, and the author of the book called Is It Me? Yes, you heard that correct. Is it me? The hidden system which is behind the toxic relationships. So her mission is very, very, very simple is to make that hidden system make it visible so that survivors finally get that support who they need, actually.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

And her message is very, very simple. It's not you. You are not alone, and you can definitely heal.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

So I'll not take much of your time, dear listeners. Let's get started. And there are a lot of things to discuss with Karin. So thank you so much, Karim, for being here with us.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

What a lovely introduction. And I could feel I I see myself nodding all the time because you it's like, yes. Exactly what you say. Yeah, it's so invisible. It's so invisible. It took me like 20 years to actually understand that I had been in a toxic relationship. So it's so invisible.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Exactly, exactly. And I believe along with us, there are a lot of listeners who are also doing the same. Like maybe they're saying, yes, you you actually you actually nailed it. I mean, you're actually saying what I wanted to say. So definitely, uh, there are people. So today I want to start with uh obviously with the title of the book, it's very, very important, I believe, because it's the exact question. Like most of the people carry in silence. Like, is it me? And there's a very common belief I I I I I think that if a relationship goes wrong, both people simply were not compatible or both share the blame equally. But your work permits or the I'm I I mean it actually points to uh something more hidden than that. So what is what is that thing like people most misunderstand about it?

SPEAKER_03 4:26

About the toxic relationship. It's that toxic people are not toxic all the time. That your relationship moves between safe and unsafe, between being loved and cared for and sometimes being disliked or hated even. That it's moving from one side to the other side and back. And because of that, you start doubting yourself, you start uh being confused, you start tiptoeing because you don't know anymore what to expect. You're looking for triggers that are not there, because they can explode for whatever reason. So there's so many things that are happening that are so confusing, so tiring, that you start asking yourself, it must be me. And what I didn't know when I was in that toxic relationship, I didn't know I was in a toxic relationship because I didn't have the language for it to explain it, I didn't have a manual, I didn't have the insight of the visible system. So when you start looking at it and and you don't understand anything, you you you look at yourself and you think it's it's you, it's me, it must be me. And when I talk to other survivors, they say the same. I really thought it was me. And it's because there's a difference between how they show up in the house and how they show up outside of the house. It can even be at work with a colleague, with a mentor, between friends, so it doesn't always have to be in romance. Something I wanted to highlight as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Definitely. Yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, definitely. It's it's and very important as well. But but before I uh say I definitely want to ask one more thing, is like when someone first begins to see the system, I mean, instead of just blaming themselves, what happens in that moment?

Why Toxic Feels Like Love

SPEAKER_03 6:10

I like that question. I remember it took me two decades to actually understand that I had been in a toxic relationship. The moment everything clicked, the blame went away. I didn't I I I didn't feel shame anymore. It felt like I could breathe again for the very first time. It was like a sense of freedom that came back into my life, like a sense of agency. Oh my god, it's not me. It's a system, and then you have like a pattern that you can look at and you can apply to the different relationships in your life. You can just check, check, check. So it it gave me a sense of freedom, and I decided to stand up as a survivor because I didn't feel the shame anymore. I'd be like, okay, this is a system, it's not me. I'm gonna talk about it because somewhere out there somebody feels the same. And I hope it resonates and that they can feel it because damn, we're not alone. No, not alone.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Exactly. I mean I think I definitely think a lot of people who are listening just felt the weight and kind of shift that they have carried along uh kind of for a very long time and just with themselves. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

So if you just go a bit deep underneath that, so from outside, people often ask that there's a I mean, if you if you take an example, like people often ask that, why didn't they just leave?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

But you understand the deeper architecture of what actually happening inside that relationship. So according to you, I mean what is the pattern? What is the pattern that you notice? I mean, the part that outsiders and even survivors also almost never see while they're inside it.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

I didn't see it when I was in it at all. When I left the relationship, I called it confusing and complex, but I never referred to it as toxic, abusive at all. Because I didn't see the pattern, I didn't know about it. I'm not sure, perhaps I wasn't aware enough. I know. That's not why don't we see the pattern? We don't see the pattern because it's invisible, we don't see the pattern because behavior changes, because the person changes, and we don't see the pattern because when you start with that person, he's she is really lovely, charismatic, charming, and then it's oh it's changing over time. So it doesn't change from one day to another, it changes over time. And the fairy tale weeks, months, first year is not your real relationship. When they start taking off the mask, the bad relationship, the bad is your relationship. And that's something that I didn't know. I thought that the bad was temporary, and we would come go back to the good. But you only go back to the good because they think they might lose you, they think they don't have control anymore, they don't have you under their power anymore, they can't dominate you anymore, and then they will pull you back in. So it's a push and pull all the time, it's uh save and save all the time, it's moving all the time, and you don't know why. So it's really it's in vi it's an invisible and a moving system. So it's layered, complex, different components. But when I talk to other survivors and we compare the stories, the stories are different, but the components they use are the same. So that's why I'm so I want to stand up as a survivor and talk about the gaslighting and the silent treatment and and what have you, just to add people understand that because it's it's not always there, they're not toxic all the time. There's sometimes really it feels, I'm gonna repeat, it feels like love and care and support. It's not. It's a game. And you have to know how the the game is being played. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

So here definitely I want to also ask

How The System Stays Invisible

SPEAKER_00 10:17

one thing. Like, I mean, uh for you, like when did the f when did the system first become visible to you uh in your own story?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Oh, that's a very good question. So I left that toxic relationships more than 20 years ago. And although I studied when I was 45, I'm 62 now. When I was 45, I studied family science, I had psychology and all the stuff, and still I couldn't explain all the whys I had been carrying. I had been burdened with over time. It was only when my mom died in 2023 that I discovered as her daughter that she had been in a toxic relationship for over 65 years, and I didn't know because I didn't see the system behind what was happening between my parents. And it's because I had so many questions around her relationship as well that I started diving deep into the matter, and that I discovered there's a system behind it, and it's because I understand stood the patterns between my parents, then I then checked my relationships, and I didn't I have all the answers to all the whys that had burdened me for so long about that confusing relationship that I had. So it took me a long time, yeah. It's just because of the fact that I had seen my mum retreat from life, from her relationship, and my father called it dementia, which it wasn't. It was just his way of telling stories about my mum which were not true. And it's really painful, you know. I cannot help my mum anymore. I I it just like it tears myself apart. I mean, I can't help her anymore, but perhaps I can help others now.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Exactly. I can I can really feel because yeah, I mean the way you describe it being built so slowly that there's never one clear moment to point to. It definitely stays with me because I think that's the that's the piece at most conversation gets wrong. Because we keep looking for a single traumatic event when the truth is much I'd say it's much wider and so much more grateful. I I'll not say grateful, it's a it's a gradual thing that's establishing over time actually.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

And sometimes when you think, now it's enough, I had enough, I'm going, they pull you back in. You will see the fairy tale version of your partner again. You go like, okay, it was stress at work, it was we come up with all these excuses because we want the relationship to work.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

We believe in the good of people. We just can't wrap our heads around it when people are nasty or show contempt or criticize all the time. You go like there must be something behind that. He has a bad date, generational, early childhood, whatever. Excuses. I used a lot of excuses.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

It's still bad behavior. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So here I'm kind of curious about our daily life, our everyday part. Because it doesn't always look like the obvious things people imagine. So for someone who is listening, right? Maybe right now or maybe they'll listen later, who is not sure about I mean what they are in? So who just knows one thing that something feels off. So so what do you say? Like, what does uh this hidden system tend to show up first in our daily life?

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Component of the hidden system or or how it shows up?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

I mean,

Early Red Flags In Daily Life

SPEAKER_00 14:05

yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

How because how it shows up first is before the system is being activated. Okay, toxic people will are spotting. Spotting for victims. And how they do that, they're looking for people who are actually going to a challenging time. A difficult time.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Or maybe someone who is just gullible to it.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

If you're empathic and you're uh like a helper and perfectionist, perhaps you you could fall into that trap as well. But most of the times they're spotting for people who are going through a difficult challenge period. You just went through divorce, you just lost your job, you just moved cities, you don't know anybody anymore, you just lost somebody precious, somebody you love. So you're like in an unbalanced situation, you're a bit shaky. And what people then they spot, they like you, they spot you, and then they will give you what you need in that moment. Perhaps it's love, perhaps it's care, perhaps it's support, and they will you will feel like you've been seen and listened to like never before. You this is my soulmate, and they give you all you need, and then it slowly starts going down. Yes, but it's really slowly, and it's difficult. It's I always say it feels like they give you a teaspoon of poison every single day, and by the time that you know that you're poisoned, you don't have the energy to leave anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, yeah, that's how it's exactly, exactly. I mean it's a kind of very slow process, but uh you just get accustomed with the situation because you are getting that support. Yeah. Mentally, which you feel but actually not happening.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

So And there's something else I want to talk to as well, is that they will make sure that you ruminate a lot of that in your about your relationship. That's a red flag. If you're ruminating about your relationship day and night, that's a red flag. Because when you're in a healthy relationship, you do not ruminate, you just enjoy.

unknown 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

And they want you to be in your head because that's where they can win with conversations, with lashing out, with criticizing, with everything they they will apply on you and they disconnect you from your body.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

So you don't feel your intuition and your navigational system that is called gut feeling, you don't feel that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So what do you suggest to them? I mean, in those moments, in those everyday moments. I mean, what is the first gentle thing like someone can do for themselves even before they fully understand what is happening actually with them?

SPEAKER_03 16:37

I think not taking the bait, the toxic bait would be a good step. If you if you feel like you're ruminating a lot, you're confused, you don't know what's happening, you think it's you, you have you heard us talking about the whole thing. You're tired, you're walking on eggshells, uh, you feel that your nervous system is out of balance, you you're here. I think not taking the bait would be the best thing ever. Take one breath before you answer.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Don't give away your emotions anymore. Don't talk about how you feel, what you want, what your what your dreams are, because they're gonna use all of that. To communicate against us itself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Against us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

It's because when you're in a relationship, you want to share. And we share because we want to share our love and our joy, and and they're gonna take advantage of it. And it's like counterintuitive to not share.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Very true. And I think I mean that's the that's a kind of clarity that lets someone finally trust their own sense that something is not right. So that's very helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

And also the fact that you disconnect from your body, if you don't feel it anymore, you don't know anymore who you are, if you start doubting who you are, it's a red flag. Because you they play games and you you just don't know what you want them or what you like, what your energizes you, because everything is you have to be for them, you have to be there for them all the time. It's their way. There's no other way, there's their way. If they push your boundaries all the time, if they the no is not accepted, if you have to hide parts of yourself, tone down parts of yourself, if you cannot talk about everything you you want to talk about because you don't know whether you're gonna be angry, lash out, critique, if it doesn't feel safe. There's so many things. But it's it's all a stacking of all those things together. It's not just one little thing. You have to you need to know all the components because then you see that the pattern is being used. When I say to somebody, yes, the silent treatment is a silent is a sign, they say yes. But sometimes I text and people don't text back. It's also silent treatment, yes, but it's only one component. It's when everything is like used on you. Not just one component, but the whole the whole uh Wow. It's so difficult to make something which is in invisible visible. I've expressed everything, my my story and what I learned. I expressed everything in words, but I also express it in energy and with colours because sometimes words are not enough to explain how it feels to be a victim and a survivor. And what what's happening when I talk about it, I see experts in the field who do not believe it, who believe the oppressor, the abuser, and not the victim, because they don't know that there's a system that is actually being used on them. So uh it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Very

First Gentle Steps To Protect Yourself

SPEAKER_00 19:43

true. And you know there is one more part which is which is I I feel it's also very important to talk about is like I mean the the the healing nobody uh romanticizes, right? But the setbacks. The day a memory comes roaring back, the moment of missing them, even after everything, right? The fear that you will never fully trust yourself or anyone else again, but you have walked long road for the recovery. But how do you stay with your own healing on the days it feels like you have lost everything? You have lost all the grounds that you have gained. What do you say?

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Well, you're so correct. I think building on what you say is healing is not a 28-day recovery program. It's I'm still on a journey of healing. I'm still trying to become 100% authentic and showing up with integrity and with vulnerability as well. But I'm not there yet because it takes a long time. And I'm talking about a toxic relationship that happened 20 years ago, but I also talk about my relationship with my dad who has narcissistic traits. So how do you deal with all of that? Meditation has helped me because it makes me aware of the moment now and what's happening in my head. Did I allow him back into my head? Did I or did I fully detoxify? I did not detox enough, so I have to make sure that it's and what helped me a lot is therapy. I've been going to therapy for a long time, and when I'm I feel that like past is pulling at me again for some reason, for some triggers, I just go back in therapy. Sometimes it's a few weeks, sometimes it's a few months, just to make sure that I can take the next step in healing. I don't think we can do it alone. The impact on our nervous system, the impact on who we are, who we want to become, is huge. I mean, I know when I talk to survivors, so many have PTSD or CTSB, the post traumatic stress disorder, because of being under in alert all the time, the nervous system being on alert all the time. So it's something that has a huge impact on us. And it's not visible. It's not like I've I ended up in hospital and I have a bruise or I had a scar. No. The scars are psychological, they are emotional. So it's so that's perhaps why we we don't care that much. I don't know. Even as a victim, as a survivor, self-care is the first step. Make sure you care for yourself first. You need to heal. Otherwise you go back.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Very true. Very true.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

We don't want to do that. It's not a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And I I definitely want to uh take your point, like moving back. So suppose for someone who is, I mean, uh I mean what will what will you tell them? Like suppose there is a survivor who feels like a step backward will actually erase all the progress that they have made till date.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

So what do you say?

SPEAKER_03 22:54

I didn't get that question. Sorry. Can you can you repeat?

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I mean for a survivor, like like like you mentioned about that step backward, right? So suppose for someone, for for a survivor or someone who just think of it like they are thinking like if I take a step backward, then whatever steps I have taken till date will remove all my progress.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

What will remove all the progress? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

I mean, whatever they have thought of I mean progressing day by day, if they just now step backward,

Healing With Therapy And Self Care

SPEAKER_00 23:27

then that progress will go in vain, kind of.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think we're on a journey. It's with ups and downs, with two steps forwards and three back. It's this is just a journey. We're just human beings and sometimes we doubt, we self-doubt. Sometimes we sometimes I still think, but it wasn't that bad, was it? It's only when I've been writing my book and putting my words on paper that I that I could really read my own words, go like, oh my god, it was bad.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

So we need to take the healing as it comes and we need to be show some grace to ourselves and to others as well. I mean, sometimes life is hard and it's difficult and we struggle and it's okay. But we what we you have learned and the the the insights that you got, they cannot take you take that away anymore. It's like once you see the system, you cannot unsee it. It's like when you drive by a house all the time, always the same house, and now they have installed the yellow post box. You cannot not see the yellow post book anymore because it it's brought to your attention once. It's it's it's there forever. So that's why I'm so passionate about it.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, and I think I think uh people people who are listening uh today, they need to hear this because yeah, because uh I mean that they are not back at the beginning just because it hurts again. I mean it's it's it's uh very truly sad you said, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

And it will keep on hurting, but that's okay. Yeah one day the hurt will not feel that much. It's something that you have something that I discovered. It took me two years. First I've been playing the victim because I thought I was the biggest victim ever, so it took me some time to actually understand why you can also change or transform what has happened to you and put that into something different. But sometimes it's a difficult journey, but there's so much to gain from just walking the journey. Well, there you go. And you're not alone walking that journey. And I think the biggest when I I started to talk about it in public, and I remember the first talk that I had was for 200 people, and I was so fearful and was so nervous and was so stressed because I thought I thought people would judge me or not believe me. And what I saw is you should never feel the shame or be fearful about talking about your truth because people came up to me afterwards and said, I'm so happy you talked about it because now I don't feel alone anymore. It's by sharing from a from a point of vulnerability that people connect. So I didn't the shame went away, and I now feel love and courage and connection from people, which I didn't expect at all. So we all walk our healing journey.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Exactly, exactly. Great Karin, and I mean it's uh it's really really grateful. And uh at the same time, if you can just share one concrete message that you want to share with the listeners today, what that will be.

Get Help Trust Your Gut

SPEAKER_03 26:43

If you're listening to this and something resonated and perhaps it came a bit too close, just know it's not you. You're a healthy person in an unhealthy relationship, you're not alone, look at the statistics, both for men and women, and yes you can heal. So if you feel like you're doubting, you're not sure, you want to know more, get educated. Educate yourself about the topic. Try to learn more about the topic, and in each country you have a toll-free number that you can ring and you can talk about it. You can just ask some questions if you're not sure. Perhaps I know abuse is a big big word, and I didn't think I was in an abusive relationship, but I was. So I think it's good to double check, ring, talk to somebody who's knowledgeable, not only knowledgeable but about toxic relationships and narcissistic traits. Yeah, so get some help, talk about it with somebody who knows. Because sometimes you have a neighbors in family and with family and friends, so that's not a good option. Talk to an expert who knows about what they're talking about, because even experts or therapists don't even know about toxic relationships. So be careful there. And yeah, trust your gut. Feel.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for giving this advice. And Corinne, if someone wants to connect with you, what would be the great medium to connect?

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Oh, you can just type in my name, Karin Vanhee.com, then you'll arrive on my website, you can find all information there about the talks, about my art, and about the book as well. So everything in one spot.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Amazing, amazing. So, dear listeners, what I'll uh do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for your easy reference. And with this, definitely I have to say, Karin, thank you so much. It I'd say it actually uh takes something rare to turn your own hardest chapter into a life for other people, and that's exactly what you have done. So for anyone who is listening, or maybe you'll be listening later as well. If any part of this discussion actually gave you a goosebumps, a moment to think about a question, a recognition, a quite something like that sounds like me, yes, like this. Then please be gentle with yourself. You don't have to have answers, you don't have to make decisions immediately. Just let yourselves consider softly. Take some time, take a deep breath, right? And maybe it was never simply you. Who knows, right? So and the very important part which Karin has also mentioned, like if you need support, please reach toward it. There are all tall toll free numbers are there, definitely. I will make sure that I'll add some of the toll free numbers, but if I miss, definitely you can go to Google, you can Google it, you'll definitely get the numbers. It's just at your tip only. You are worth reaching for it. So with this, hope this is your host of this is Mind Meets Machine. Stay happy, stay healthy, keep smiling. I'll see you next time. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Thanks for having me.