From Hobbyist to Entrepreneur: The Author's Journey with Aaron Ryan

The primary concern addressed in this podcast episode revolves around the unsettling reality of technology, particularly artificial intelligence, encroaching upon the domains traditionally occupied by human creativity. As we delve into this critical dialogue, we explore the profound implications that arise when the very tools designed to augment our creative endeavors begin to supplant our roles within those pursuits. Our distinguished guest, Aron Ryan, an accomplished author and voiceover artist, shares invaluable insights derived from his personal experiences in navigating this evolving landscape. Through our conversation, we elucidate the importance of recognizing one's unique voice amidst the cacophony of AI-generated content, which threatens to dilute the essence of human storytelling. Ultimately, we advocate for a paradigm shift in how creatives perceive their work—not merely as a hobby, but as a viable enterprise deserving of respect and strategic engagement in a competitive marketplace.

The podcast delves into the profound implications of technology in the creative realm, particularly focusing on the unsettling reality that innovations designed to enhance human capability may also supplant it. As we navigate this technological landscape, we are joined by Aron Ryan, an accomplished author with a rich portfolio of over forty works, who shares his insightful experiences and perspectives on the matter. During our conversation, we explore the essence of creativity and the intrinsic motivations that drive artists and writers alike. Aron emphasizes the importance of viewing writing not merely as a hobby but as a vocation that warrants respect and business acumen. He discusses the misconception that pursuing a creative career is at odds with financial success, advocating instead for a mindset that embraces entrepreneurship alongside artistry. This episode serves as a clarion call for creatives to recognize their unique voice and the potential for their work to thrive in an increasingly competitive environment, particularly in the face of encroaching artificial intelligence.

Takeaways:

• The emergence of technology, particularly AI, raises critical questions about its impact on creative professions, potentially displacing human creators.
• Understanding the difference between viewing a creative pursuit as a hobby versus a business is crucial for long-term success.
• Many authors struggle with misconceptions about their work’s value, believing that creativity and entrepreneurship cannot coexist harmoniously.
• Developing patience and a structured approach to writing can significantly enhance the quality and effectiveness of an author's output.
• Analysis paralysis and imposter syndrome are common barriers that hinder many creative individuals from realizing their potential.
• It is essential for creators to recognize that their unique voice and perspective are invaluable contributions to the artistic landscape, regardless of the surrounding competition.

Links referenced in this episode:

• authoraronryan.com
• authoraronryongroup.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Grok
• Adidas
• Sea Dance
• Respeecher
• Speech Ocean
• 11 Labs

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Dear listeners, what happens when the very technology that was supposed to help you start to replace you?

The Impact of Technology on Creativity

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Sounds very hard, right? Not in some distant science fiction feature. Right now. So today, in your career, in your art, in the thing that you spend years building with your own hands and your own voice. So today's guest has loved that question from the inside. And what he found on the other side of it might be the most important thing a creative person can hear right now. So, ready listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine, the podcast where we sat with the intersection of human creativity, technology, and the kind of honest thinking that actually moves you forward. I mean Hostavik, and I'm really glad that uh you choose to spend this time with here with uh all of you with both of us and all the listeners that are listening today. So um yesterday, please welcome. But before I mention, I have to say he's an award-winning and best-selling author with over 40 Polish books to his name, including the sixth book Alien Invasion saga, dissonance, and carrier that spans a fiction voice over, and now coaching fellow authors on how to turn their writing from a hobby into an actual enterprise. So please welcome our guest, Aaron Brand. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Hello, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Amazing, amazing. So, Aaron, like before we get into the AI conversation um and and all the noise around it. I want to start with something quite up, like over 40 books, and that's not a hobby, that's a life. So, what is that keeps you going back to the piece? Like, what does uh writing actually give you?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

That's a great question. I mean, admin a few groups on Facebook, and so I try to post very engaging questions every day. That's very that's a very common one that I'll post is what is your why for writing? And the answers are always just as about as varied as there are flavors of popcorn anymore. My why is I just have to create. So if I don't create, I'll probably spontaneously combust. I have to return to creating something with my hands, my fingers, my mind, my heart. And uh I've done that in a lot of different iterations throughout my life, but I think one of the natural, most natural forms of delivery for me in terms of creativity has been through storytelling. And you'll see that through many of the careers and vocations that I've had. But the rawest, truest form is actually telling a story and writing a novel. So there's something really intrinsically satisfying about the process from envisioning it here and here, and then you know, seeing it when it's done and holding it in your hands and going, hey, I wrote this. I actually didn't write this, but anyway. But holding it in your hands at the end and going, wow, it went from here to here, something truly satisfying about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Understood. Understood. So I always ask about because um uh I I believe this one word has a lot of um weight, which is the misconception. Like the word creative for a moment, like because I think it carries a misconception that actually uh hurts people, a lot of writers, artists, creators who treat their work like it exists outside of the business. Like the moment you talk about marketing or the money, you have I mean somehow sold out. You clearly don't operate that way. So, what's the misconception that you keep running into when you sit down with authors who are struggling to grow?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

And I'm sorry, the I think the connection cut out a little bit. You're talking about marketing?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Uh no, I'm saying like uh suppose like sometimes the moment comes as like uh the marketing uh money, uh and you have somehow sold out. You call you don't clearly uh operate that way, right? So uh accord according to you, what is a misconception?

unknown 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Yeah, well, so I mean there's two different ways that you can approach a creative pursuit. And I've run into the same thing as a voiceover artist as well. One of the things uh people constantly said as voice actors is, you know, I'm I'm not doing this for the money. It's a hobby for me, so I don't need to charge market rates. And so, in so doing, they will sell out themselves and they'll basically say, I don't care that it should pay me, you know, $3,000 for a national TV spot for a year. I'll be fine with $300. You know, I'll be fine with a hundred. And that drives down market rates. And I think the mindset differential that you're running into there is people who are not looking at it as a vocation, not looking long-term, and they're not a community player, they're not a team player. So they're gonna charge these abysmal bottom barrel, you know, uh bargain-basement pricing that just drives down the fair market rates for everyone. And that hurts us all. It's fairly similar where uh where people say, you know, I don't write for business, I don't write for income. And and, you know, that's fine, that's all well and good. If you want to write as a hobbyist, more power to you. There's no problem with that. I mean, do you do you and we'll do us. But I write and I would love for this to be not only a passion and a huge source of inspiration, just writing each day, but I'd also love it to pay for our mortgage. I'd also love it to buy a car. I'd also love it to put our kids through school, maybe private school. I would love to not just be a voice actor who also writes books. I'd prefer to be an author who also does voiceover work. I would love this to be our breadwinning pursuit. So the mindset really just comes from a long-term mindset versus a short-term. It comes from looking at it as a business, not as a hobby. It comes from treating it respectfully as opposed to somewhat flippantly. A hobby comes and goes, and entrepreneurship or a freelancer or a career, that's here to stay. And I'm a freelancer and an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Exactly.

The Cost of Misconceptions in Creativity

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Exactly. And like when someone holds onto that misconception, right? That that artistry, that entrepreneurship cannot coexist. So what does that actually cost them over time?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Well, over time, what you're gonna see is you're gonna see a failed investment. It's almost like the sunk cost fallacy. People will put in a cost and uh they'll put a little more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and then you know, they've gone too far to turn back around. And it's this, it's this um like you pass the um, what's that called, where you can't go, you're flying a plane over the Atlantic and you pass the point where you can no longer turn around. You're you're at the midpoint, right? And so I forget the Rubicon. So you pass the Rubicon in business and you're not willing to invest anymore. Well, an entrepreneur will see a business pursuit and see an entrepreneurship and go, this is worth every single penny over the long term. A hobbyist will see an expense as merely that, an expense. It's not long term, it's not, you know, for anything grand. It's it's kind of a begrudging, okay, if I have to, I'll spend this money on marketing or whatever. Whereas a business owner is going to see that expense as an investment. It's no longer an expense. It's an investment into their identity, it's an investment into their craft, it's an investment into their future self. And I love those um, those motivational speakers who talk about, you know, your future self will thank you. It's so true. Um, I look back at some of the things I've done early on as an author and go, those were investments that I made that perhaps still haven't paid off, but they will, and I have to believe that they will. It wasn't just a okay, if I have to expense at the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

I understand. Yeah, yeah. And um obviously, I mean I mean the creative purity they are trying to protect, it ends being ends up being the thing that keeps them invisible. So if you talk about the root causes, right? So I'm curious, like you counsel authors on recognizing and avoiding scammers, on building a real enterprise, on thinking differently about their work. So when you look at the people who are most stuck, what is the pattern on underneath? I mean, uh is it a fear, is it irony, or uh kind of not knowing what they don't know? I mean, what exactly it is?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Well, I think there's two things that are at play oftentimes when you're venturing out on your own, even if you're starting a new job and you know you're you're the at the bottom of the barrel and trying to learn the whole process. One of those is analysis paralysis, that's huge, and the other is imposter syndrome. Analysis paralysis is just people can get stuck on on uh regurgitating all of these thoughts and this process, and they've got to perfect the whole thing, and they've got to just completely dot all their i's and cross all their T's, or they cannot take a step forward. And you enter a state of paralysis when you just you overthink things. My wife is a is a rabid overthinker, and she's she'll be the first to admit that. She has a shirt that says, let me overthink this. And I love that, but it's such a paralyzing effect because people can be so reluctant to just put their foot in the river. You don't have to take the dive yet, you don't have to, you know, wade out yet, but at least put your foot in the river, feel the temperature, feel the flow, get acclimated to the system that you are uh that you're looking at, and and don't be afraid to you know partake and to just move and Adidas, just do it. The analysis paralysis keeps

Navigating the Challenges of Creative Purity and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

SPEAKER_01 9:50

a lot of people stuck. Imposter syndrome being the other one is people think, well, who am I? You know, there's there's I'm only Aaron Ryan. I'll I'll never be a Tom Clancy or a John Grisham or J.R.R. Tolkien or Suzanne Collins or Isaac Asimov. You know, who am I? Who the heck am I? Yeah. And it's such a fallacy because we all have such a unique voice to bring to the pursuit that we are engaging in. Oscar Wilde said, be yourself. Everyone else has already taken. I love that quote. Be unique. You have a unique voice to bring to this craft. You don't need to be Isaac Asimov or J.R.R. Tolkien or, you know, any of those other people.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

So, and in your own journey, like right, uh the 40 books behind you, a voiceover career, uh publishing business. Where did you personally have to unlearn something about yourself as a creative in order to actually grow?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Well, uh, there's one thing that I know I know is just a huge problem of mine, and that's patience. I mean, welcome to the human race, right? I love my my love language is giving. And so one of the things that I found is so rewarding as an author is you get to give a new work that you've done, you know, every time. So for those people who are actually watching the interview, this is one of the latest. In fact, it might be the latest. It is the all-in-one compendium of my talisman series. It's three books in one, and I made a hardcover version of it so you can enjoy all three books in one. And I I just I get so excited about putting a book out there and sharing it with my readers that sometimes I neglect to edit it thoroughly. You know, there may be some really rare but still some straggling typos. There may be something that I could have, should have, would have put in if I had just slow baked it a little bit longer. So one of the things I'm learning to unlearn about myself is going fast. I'm learning to go slow, and that's very counterintuitive to who I am. Another thing is I just I really have to take more time to just plan out. Again, this is a patience issue, but I have to take more time to plan out what I'm going to offer, what's what book I'm going to offer. Um, I tend to work backward, which is also counterintuitive for your normal author. I like to create a cover of a book first, get excited about that cover, and then work my way back to that cover. Whereas, you know, there's other times, and most authors will work this way. They'll get a great idea for a book that'll germinate in their bride in their in their mind, and they'll get their creative juices flowing about how to structure that book, and the cover will eventually come. I like to work backwards, and that's harder for me to work the other way. Although I think recently I've been starting to entertain more ideas about letting the thought germinate, marinating in it for a while, taking it slower, again, back to patience, and then eventually getting to my finish line. It's I think every every single book is a new process of learning, every book is a new odyssey of engagement with who you are and what you should be doing. I love learning. Every book is new.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Exactly. Every book is new. Yeah. And um, I mean, now I have to ask about the EI part because it's it's right at the center of everything you do and everything the show is all about. So do you have experienced what AI has done, not just to uh publishing world, but specifically to your uh voiceover career? So it's not abstract. So that's your income, your craft, your voice. So what did that feel like when it started shifting? And what does the reality actually look like from where you're standing right now?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Well, feel and reality are very linked in terms of the erosion of the voiceover career and the authoring career. Um, I've seen our income drop. I've seen longtime cherished relationships with producers I've worked with for a long time. I mean, I know that was a little redundant, but I've savored those relationships, and they are no more, either because they the producers themselves have been replaced by AI by their higher-ups, or their higher-ups have instructed them to no longer use human voice actors for their narration, and they'll use instead technology like uh Re-Speecher, Speech Alo, SpeechOcean, 11 Labs, and they will automate their script. They'll plug in the script just like a prompt in Grok and uh and they'll you know render it in speech. So um are human voice actors a thing of the past? No. Um I think there's nothing that can replace human idiosyncrasies and human nuance and all of those things that really make us human. But I have seen our income drop. I've seen our relationships, precious relationships fall by the wayside. I've seen the quantity and quality of jobs drop. That's as a voice actor. As an author, the quality and quantity of the content that's being put out there in the marketplace is now being diluted by AI offerings. And so what it's doing is it's pitting author against author. You wrote this with AI. No, I didn't. Yes, you did, pitting readers against authors because readers now look at so many books as suspect. The author had to have written this with AI. They put it out so fast, you know. Or and there have been cases of that where AI has been detected flat out. It's completely patently obvious in their work that it is AI written. I don't believe that like idea generation, using AI software for idea generation is inherently wrong. Don't see a problem with that. Where generative AI deviates from that is you are outsourcing the entire creation process to a computer. I think there's something fundamentally and morally wrong with that process. So we've had to compete. Authors have had to compete to really prove that we are, in fact, the genuine article. Never should have happened that way.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

So uh, and for the authors right now who are watching AI-generated content flood every platform, what are they actually up against? And what are they getting wrong about the trend?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Well, I think one of the things that you know, when you hear the word AI, first of all, um it's right there in the title, artificial intelligence. It cannot match a human intelligence. In some cases, it can exceed. I mean, we know people who are not necessarily very intelligent, but you've got AI that has, you know, no ceiling in terms of its learnability and its trainability. So but the term is threatening to some people because, you know, who are we? Are we going to be usurped? Are we going to be replaced? And uh there's a threat of there's the ever-present threat of the Skynet phenomenon, you know, from f from Terminator. I don't think that we're there. I think that we have a long way to go before we get there. But I think the problem exists where people are looking, it's it's you're seeing a dumbing down of society where the slop that's being foisted upon mankind right now through TikTok, Facebook, Instagram reels, people believe that they are real, what they're seeing. They're believing that they're real. And it's really sad to see how gullible the human race has become. We've become dumbed down by the you know, the cheapening of entertainment and the slop that's put out there. Another thing that the phenomenon that you're seeing lately is like C dance, for example, creating really super hyper-realistic videos of, say, Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt having a rooftop fight, and neither one of them were present in that video, and neither one of them consented to their likenesses appearing in that video. And so, you know, AI like C Dance, they're getting the pants sued off of them, rightly so. So it's just it's a battle, it's a nation technology, it's an unregulated wild west out there, and we need fences around it. We need legislation governing it, I really believe.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

So uh okay, and and I mean there's a real difference between uh adapting to a changing landscapes and uh surrendering to it. And I think that you are drawing that line very, very clearly. Practical approach, if I have to say, uh, you talk about uh creative marketing, and I really love that phrase because it refuses to separate the two things people usually keep apart. Like for an author who is brilliant at writing but completely lost when it comes to finding the readers, building an audience, building newsletter, getting their work seen in a world, drowning in a content.

The Entrepreneurial Mindset of Authors

SPEAKER_00 18:20

So, where do you actually start? Like, what is the first real move?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Well, I think that this is where I draw the line from between myself and a hobbyist is I am a businessman who just happens to write books. And I think it's a clear delineation. I am not an author, I am a businessman who happens to write books. I'm not a voice actor, I'm a businessman who happens to provide voiceovers. And so the craft is super important and the craft is utterly precious to me. But the craft has to, in some senses, come second. It has to be placed secondarily so that if you really want to take this craft somewhere, your first identity should be a business person. So, and that's just my opinion. It's an IM IMHO, you know, stance. But as a business person, I now have a vehicle to take my craft and put it on to take it somewhere. Hobbyists are those people who are just they don't really have the long-term vision or the business acumen or the desire to take it beyond the realm of hobby. A business person wants to see this not only provide great enjoyment in creation, whatever sort of creator they are, but they want to see it pay for their house, pay for their mortgage, put their kids through school, put a bunch in savings. Nothing wrong with that at all. There's nothing wrong with either inherently. It's just that if you want to take this long term and take it to a thriving, financially beneficial model, you need to treat it as such. You need to treat it as a business and an enterprise. Some of that comes from simple things like, you know, I get shirts like this, and I'm out there wearing these shirts in public. This says author because bleary-eyed, I can't read it backward because my display is backwards, but because bleary-eyed lunatic obsessed with imaginary friends isn't an official job title. That's what my shirt says. And so it's a conversation starter when I'm out there in public. So people see this and they go, Oh, are you an author? And I go, Yes, I am. And and we get to have that discussion. I have vinyl lettering on the back window of my van and book stickers on the side of my van. I want people to know this is what I do. Why wouldn't you do that if it's something that you're passionate about? That's the difference between a hobbyist and an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Exactly. Exactly. Wow. And um, like the entrepreneurial mindset you bring to authoring is that something you can learn? So, or does it a certain kind of rewiring of how you see yourself and your work first?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Um, it's definitely something you can learn, but you need to have a fair amount of initial business acumen. You need to have the basics, which is organization, goal setting, time management, things like that. Those are so critical in order to be able to function first and foremost as an entrepreneur, as a business person. The craft is the craft, is the craft. And people either have the ability to write a good book or song or poem or play or whatever, or they don't. That's the craft. That's one thing. And that'll that'll come and go with each person. But you can and should learn business acumen in terms of the things I mentioned, so that you can actually form a structure around it. And again, take your beautiful beloved craft that you love to do and put it on that business vehicle to take it somewhere. I look at it as I've I want to go somewhere. I don't want to sit here and just write books for me. I'm I'm wasting time. Who will ever read them? I want people to read them. I want to find creative ways to put them out there in the world. In order to do that, I have to have a business mindset in order to find a way to get them out to the reader.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

And also, like um. Also, talk about the wrong part, like the setbacks, because they always do. Scammers targeting authors, platforms changing their algorithms overnight, uh, AI undercutting an entire income stream. So, what do you do with a setback that is not just a bump, but actually changes the landscape that you are standing on?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Well, I I like to gratefully say that I've I've not been scammed yet by any scammers, but man, I I've never been scammed as much as I have as an author. I've never been solicited by as many scammers as I have as an author. It's absolutely pathetic. Every single day I get upwards of 30 emails from scammers that are trying to get me to invest in some kind of uh service where they can provide reviews, guaranteed book sales, a screenplay adaptation, literary agency, traditional publisher acquisition. And they're all what they're all the things that authors think about, you know. So they're preying, literally preying on our hopes and our dreams. And it's really a pathetic existence. I mean, I have no pity for them whatsoever. What a miserable existence they have. That's a setback, though, that I know has snared people. I'm in the author's guild, I'm a contributing member to the authors' guild, and I read the comments that just, you know, they make me so sad of colleagues, authors who have been scammed by vanity publishers and hybrid publishers and other types of scammers. It's so sad, and it's the scamming, the scammers, the phenomenon of it is so rife, it's such an epidemic in the authoring industry.

Overcoming Setbacks and Embracing Your Unique Voice

SPEAKER_01 23:34

So that's a huge setback that you have to be able to overcome. If you've been scammed, it can just suck the wind right out of you. But another thing I think that's far more common for authors, and I'm sure other creatives is you are doing something that you want someone to experience. As an author, I want people to experience my books. When they don't buy, when they leave a negative review, when I'm not achieving the same level of success as, say, maybe, you know, this author over here is, when I'm not being asked and provided speaking opportunities at conferences or whatever, I can get upset, I can get saddened, I can get frustrated, and I I will say, should I quit? That question invariably comes up. And you have to develop structural fortitude to last through those times and go, if this is really truly what you want, and you you do feel utterly called to this, then you have to have that structural fortitude to muscle through those times. Someone's endorsement of you or lack thereof has very little to do with your trajectory. I was given that quote by a casting agent, and I just love it. You have to be able to know your trajectory is forward, regardless of whether or not things are working out in the meanwhile.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

So, um, I mean, I do ask something for the person who's listening, or maybe they'll be listening, like who is sitting at on a kind of manuscript they have been afraid to finish or not able to finish, or a creative dream that they have been quietly talk uh I mean talking themselves out of because they think the world is too crowded. I has one, or maybe they have just left it too late. So, what would you want them to hear right now?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

I would want them to hear that they have a unique voice that they can offer into the marketplace that has not been done before. And that is one of the biggest concerns, you know. What who am I? Again, this is imposter syndrome. Who am I to uh to offer anything, you know, to the authoring industry or to readers out there? And I think that's a that's also a fallacy. So ultimately, you do have a unique voice, and I love what Oscar Wilde says about this. Be yourself, everyone else is already taken. Out there, you already have J.R.R. Tolkien and Isaac Asimov and John Grisham and Tom Clancy and Michael Crichton and everybody else. You already have these amazing authors, and they are amazing, but they were once nobody as well. They were also at a point where they were in relative obscurity. So that's what happens is you write something, you're plucked out of relative obscurity, and you have something that you can share and keep it unique. That's the most important thing. Don't try to be J.R.R. Tolkien. Don't try to be Madeline Langle. Don't try to be, you know, whoever. Just be yourself. The world doesn't need more of them. Be yourself. You have a unique voice.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

So um Delisten as I have to say that if I have to carry one thing from this conversation, it would be the machine can replicate your output, but it cannot replicate the reason that you started. And the reason is still your greatest competitive age. I mean, no one can snatch that thing from you. So that is very, very important. And I don't like for the writers, for the creators, the curious people like me uh listening who want to follow your walk about your books. Uh learn something new from you. What is the best place to find you and anything that is waiting for them? Uh that you can share.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah. Well, they can also always go to authorarinrion.com. Um, authorarinrion.com is the main site that has all the sub sites linked there and the uh the social media links. But they can also go to authorarinrion group.com. Authorinrion Group.com will forward them to a private and exclusive Facebook group where if they're an author, they're going to come across helpful videos and tips and tricks. They'll find out about the books that I've had adapted for the screen and how they are faring out there in the marketplace. They will, you know, you find out about discount codes and giveaways and things like that that I have. So authorarenrian group.com will provide lots of goodies for authors and readers. And authorarinrion.com is my main site that you'll find links to everything else from. So there you go. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Amazing. So um, listeners, I have to say that. I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for easy reference. And um, that's a wrap for today's episode on Mind Meets Machine. And if something Aaron said is still turning over in your mind, then let it be. That's not the distraction, that's your creative instinct waking up. So all of Aaron's details, as I said, will be in the show notes. And if this episode meant something to you, pass it on. Not because numbers matter, but because someone you know might be sitting on something brilliant and just needs one conversation to believe it's worth explanation. So, with this hope, I'm your host awake, and uh keep creating, keep questioning, and take care of your mind behind the walk because that's where everything begins. So next time, thank you so much.

unknown 28:55

Thank you.