Navigating the Intersection of Human Systems and Technology with Simon

The salient point of this discussion revolves around the premise that the real impediments to progress within modern organizations are often not attributable to the tools or the talents at hand, but rather to the invisible frameworks through which teams organize, make decisions, and become ensnared. We delve into the complexities faced by leaders and teams, examining how a lack of clarity in goals can exacerbate inefficiencies and lead to stagnation. Our guest, Simon Copsey, a seasoned delivery and transformation consultant, elucidates the dynamics that hinder effective collaboration and delivery in cross-functional settings. The dialogue emphasizes the necessity for leaders to recognize their role in shaping the systems in which their teams operate, fostering an environment conducive to both individual fulfillment and collective achievement. We invite our listeners to reflect on their organizational practices and consider the underlying structures that may be contributing to their challenges, encouraging a mindset of curiosity and experimentation as a pathway to improvement.

Modern organizations frequently grapple with an underlying tension that hinders their operational efficacy. Despite possessing advanced technology and capable personnel, progress often remains elusive. This episode features an insightful dialogue with Simon Copsey, a seasoned delivery and transformation consultant. We explore the notion that the true impediments to progress may not reside in the tools or the talent available, but rather in the often unseen dynamics of how teams are organized, how decisions are made, and how they become ensnared in inefficiency. As we navigate the complexities of human systems intersecting with technology, we uncover the critical factors that shape organizational performance. Copsey articulates the importance of recognizing these hidden structures and their influence on productivity, urging leaders to adopt a holistic approach to management that emphasizes clarity and coherence over mere effort and frameworks. We delve into the symptomatic manifestations of these inefficiencies, such as diminished morale, increased attrition, and the frustrating experience of busyness without tangible outcomes. The conversation serves as a clarion call for leaders to reassess their organizational frameworks and pursue meaningful transformations that foster a culture of accountability and collaboration.

Takeaways:

• Modern organizations frequently encounter internal tensions that hinder productivity and growth.
• Despite the presence of advanced technology and skilled personnel, progress can often feel frustratingly slow.
• The actual bottleneck in organizational performance may stem from the underlying systems of collaboration and decision-making.
• Effective leadership involves recognizing that the systems in place significantly influence team productivity and morale.
• A lack of a clear organizational goal can lead to confusion, inefficiency, and disengagement among team members.
• Understanding and addressing the systemic issues is crucial for fostering a supportive work environment that encourages progress.

Links referenced in this episode:

• curiouscoffee.club
• podhub.club

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There's a quiet tension inside most modern organizations. The technology is powerful, the people are capable, and yet progress feels slower than it should. So what if the real bottleneck isn't the tools, talent or effort, but the invisible ways teams organize, decide, and get stuck together?

Exploring the Intersection of Human Systems and Technology

SPEAKER_01 0:24

And today we are staying right there at the intersection where human systems meet complex technologies. So hey everyone, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine, the podcast where we explore how human thinking, leadership, and organizational design shape the way technology actually delivers value. And today I'm joined by a lovely guest. Please welcome Simon Copsey. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Thank you very much for having me, Harry. Grateful to be here. I love your introduction.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for joining us on Mind Meets Machine. Dear listeners, before we delve deep into our discussion, I'll quickly love to introduce you with Simon.

Understanding Complex Systems in Management

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Simon is a delivery and transformation consultant who helps senior leaders unwind the complex cross-functional obstacles, not over the years, but in weeks, so happier teams can deliver better software to the customers very sooner. And in this episode, we will explore the modern management inside complex organizations. What really slows teams down and how the leaders can approach change with more clarity and less friction. So why do weck let's get started? Welcome to the show again.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Amazing. So Simon, like I mean, um before we delve deeper into the discussion, I definitely love to start with one curiosity, which I'm I'm definitely uh curious. Like um when leaders come to you feeling frustrated or stuck into something, what's the I mean, what's usually happening beneath the surface that they haven't fully named yet what is that?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Perhaps complex team. I know as a manager when I'm when I don't appreciate that the world is complex, I think all problems are simple and therefore all solutions are clear. And when the solution doesn't work, I can't work out why. But often the world is more complex and we often diagnose, we often treat the wrong problem as opposed to apply the wrong solution. I think that that's probably a mismatch. Yeah, treating the wrong problem.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Okay. So like um okay, I mean also when we understand about the frustration and all, I believe a lot of organizations assume that if delivery is slow, people just need to work harder, plan better, adopt new frameworks. So from what you have seen, what's the misconception hiding inside that assumption?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Well, if we hired great people, then why haven't we already delivered where we expected to? It can't be uh people not trying hard enough. And um so then it becomes a question of if it's another people, then what is it? And it quite quickly becomes what's getting in their way? Um and that's that's where the interesting kind of breadcraft begins. That's where we really get into um debugging and understanding our systems and uh what's getting in the way of stuff. And generally we find it's um quite obvious, uh, but only in hindsight. So for example, if if we have lots of people but they're all pulling in different directions, then we're not gonna make progress. We're not gonna make progress against our goal. If we don't know what our goal is, we can't make progress against our goal. Um so there's a number of um, I guess, uh initially more subtle causes, but in hindsight are quite clear, kind of aha moments. But it rarely has ever has to do with the quality of the stuff. People do a good job hiring.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

So um I mean like so instead of effort being the issue, I believe it's the it's often the system people are working within the rules, incentives, the handoffs that actually shape the behavior that already reframes possibility or responsibility in a powerful way. What do you say?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Oh, Abby, you finished the thought perfectly. Yes, yes, yeah. You took it to the conclusion. Yes, exactly. And if managers are responsible for the system of work, then it's managers themselves that are responsible for what they're seeing. Similar to me as a parent, when I see my my kid doing something I don't want him to do, it's because of me. Like if I see him trying to grab a something that's breakable, well, why do I leave it in his reach? He's one and a half, he knows no better. It's not saying that staff don't know any better, not at all. But it's that as parents and managers, we create the conditions in which uh staff or kids are. And it's managers and parents' responsibility to make that system better. So it's not that but managers are good. It's just often that you know, I know when I became a manager, I wasn't given training. I assumed it was just an extension of what I already did as software developer. So no one's good or bad here. It's no one, no one's not pulling their weight, whether it's managers or staff. It's just that we're often not taught what's needed, necessary, to understand where the problems are coming from. Yes, exactly what you said. But uh, the people who create that system are the managers. So we need to help.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

I totally agree. Yeah. And like when you zoom out across the leadership product, engineering, and all. So what is it, I mean, what are the deeper patterns tend to create these cross-functional obstacles in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Oh, whoo, whoo, there's so many. Let me uh throw, try and throw a few out.

unknown 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

So I think the one that we talked about already and and and we probably coalesced on a number of times is kind of the absence of a goal. We don't know what our goal is as an organization. Uh we can't prioritize. If we can't prioritize, everything's a priority. There's always a lot going on at any one time. All the teams are working to 100% uh cues grow to infinity, work gets stuck between the team rather than completed, feedback slows down. Uh we don't know whether we're delivering the right thing to customers because we don't apply that until too late. Staff don't have time to learn, they leave. So yeah. So not having a clear goal leads to a lot of uh symptoms. That clear goal across teams and across the organization, ideally. Um trying to think of uh another one. I think um that's the one I've seen most recently quite quite frequently. Through no one's fault, it's non-obvious except in hindsight. I think I think another one is uh yeah, what I said about complexity. Managers and staff, and I I was guilty of this as a manager. Managers assume they um if they if they realize they're to sort they're there to solve problems for their staff, they maybe do it in isolation. But staff really are the ones that are the uh the sharp end of problems. They understand uh what's getting in their way. And there's a temptation for management to try and uh with best intention solve those problems, say, oh, let's adopt Scrum, let's do this, let's do that to make you know things better, but without really understanding the problem. But really, staff can't solve those problems in isolation because they can't see what the managers see. And managers can't solve the problems in isolation because they don't know the problems that the staff are feeling and actually uh you know fully appreciate them. So it's only when staff and managers come together can they create improve the conditions of work. So I think often there's a temptation to solve things in isolation, which won't work. Treating symptoms without fully understanding the cause. I could go on, but what's coming up for you? What's coming up for you? I'll ramble on forever, happy.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, exactly. So I mean um what I am hearing is that complexity compounds when decisions, feedback, accountability get fragmented. And the challenge is not the intelligence, but obviously it's uh coherence,

Understanding Organizational Obstacles

SPEAKER_01 7:52

right? So for the listeners inside the organizations right now, what does this look like day to day? I mean, how do these individual or kind of I would say invisible obstacles show up in the meetings, roadmaps, or the team morale? Like, what do you have to say on this?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, that's a good one. And sorry, you you named something uh really good in your previous summary there, Abby, around accountability. Often there's a temptation to specialize people. Work comes in and it's complex, but then we specialize people into disciplines like Java, AI, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Um and that means we need loads of different teams to work together to solve a problem, which we create these interdependencies, which then become become hard to manage. So the accountability is kind of uh trying to break things into smaller pieces, be organizations or specialities. Tempting, but uh can be dangerous. So, what are the symptoms that we might see? Uh, I guess uh as a member of a team, we might see I mean it can come in all shapes and forms. I guess in its most basic form, it's us getting further away from the goal as an organization. But we may see that as staff quitting, we may see that as delivery slowing, we may see that as technical debt increasing, which I guess is a leading measure of um delivery slowing. It could be uh costs increasing, uh, which is a very vague statement because costs come from everywhere, but we might see costs increasing. Uh, we may see indecision, we may see um uh growing impatience. So, for example, if we're in an IT department and we serve other areas of the organization, our customers may become impatient. And that can lead to compounding effects where they then um threaten to maybe not give us enough budget and reduce our budget, and that means that we then have to push harder, and then us pushing harder actually makes things worse. It means more attrition, etc. Um, yeah, uh dissatisfied customers, reduced outcomes, quality of our products, uh what we're creating, disgruntled shareholders if we have shareholders, marketing or kind of leading initiatives like marketing R and D being cut, costs being cut in the forms of um travel hiring freezes, all these focus on costs as opposed to uh profits. All these things indicate maybe uh people trying to guess where how to solve problems as opposed to knowing where they actually come from. In between teams, work piling up, priorities not being clear, there'd be many priorities at any one time because of spreading our bets.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

These are all yeah, these are all things it varies, but those kind of things, maybe things that just feel off. At the end of the day, just people not enjoying their work because so much is getting in their way. I guess that's that's the basic.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Very true. Very, very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

And you know, like uh that sense of uh constant busyness without real progress is something uh I mean so many teams normalize, but until I'd say burnout sets in, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

And yeah, yeah, please. Oh no, I was just saying your your point is beautiful in that burnout often comes from not having a clear purpose. And busyness is the opposite of progress. Busyness is doing stuff, but progress is making progress or productivity is progress against the goal. Busyness is not having a goal and not knowing what to do, just doing anything we can because we don't know where we're trying to go. And if we don't know where we're trying to go, we can't question what we're doing. If we can't question or know the value of what we're doing, we burn out because we're like, why am I doing this? So sorry. Everything you said there was just so coherent, it was lovely.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Very true, very true.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So uh I mean when leaders uh realize the issue is systematic and not personal, where do you usually invite them to start with? I mean if you sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Um I guess it's assembling the puzzle. So first of all, we need to know um to know what's wrong, we need to know what's right first. Um so we need a clear goal. And we need to understand what's necessary to achieve the goal, what are the conditions that we need. Like first of all, we need a secure and satisfying workplace because we don't have start full leave, right? That's a very basic one. But there's other things that we need to uh make progress against our goal. But then once you know what right looks like, we can look for the wrongs. So uh we look at what are those things that we need, that we believe we need as leaders to achieve our goal aren't in place, and that's where we can go talking to every we want everyone we can to get the piece of the puzzle to understand, hey, um, is is this thing in place or not? Why isn't it true? Where is it coming from? What's leading it to not be true? Why are staff not satisfied or not feeling secure? Um and then that that helps us understand the relevant symptoms that we then need to kind of get to the bottom of and where they're coming from. So so generally, yeah, it's working out firstly what does right look like, and then we know what wrong looks like. Then we go looking for wrong and working out where wrong is coming from, if this analogy makes any sense, like a doctor, and um then we can uh work out where to focus our efforts because wrongness, many of different wrongs tend to come from the same underlying cause. Many symptoms tend to come from the same underlying cause. So if we can work out what are the things that need to be in place, aren't in place and why, generally we'll find the whys have the same answer that there's just like with um ailments, many symptoms come from just one dying cause.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

And uh I really appreciate that emphasis on experimentation and also learning, uh treating management more like a scientific process than a set of fixed answers. Um that's that's lovely. And um for the for the readers, uh I don't say the readers basically, like uh, you know, like the change really moves in a straight line. Like when organization hit the resistance, relapse into the old habits, or feel progress slowing again. I'm to understand like how can leaders respond without slipping back into the control or the blame.

Understanding Change and Resistance

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I guess it depends. I guess it depends, you know. There may be many reasons why we slip back.

unknown 13:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Maybe that the change that we implemented wasn't an improvement. Um, and so we should be slipping back. Often I understand from Gold Rats, as I always say, things, anything that sounds good that I say comes from other people like Gold Rak, Aikov, Deming, Drucker, anything bad I say is from But um I think what I understand from Goldrat is that uh people don't avoid change. There may be maybe many different reasons why we slip back, but assuming that we've um in the first instance people are rejecting a change, it's because it's not an improvement. People don't reject change, people like I got married, I've had a kid, those are pretty big scary changes, but I wanted them. People welcome change as long as it's an improvement. The other part of that's fair process where people want to be part of the change, they want to be involved, they want to contribute, they want to their voice to be heard. So as long as we involve so if if people are rejecting change or are slipping back, one reason might be that we've actually got to either doing the wrong change or going through the wrong process to involve people in the change. And we've actually made things worse. So I I say I'd say uh it's kind of go alone, go fast, go together, go far. So it's it's the process that becomes the f before the rejection or before the rollback. That's the interesting piece, and probably the piece to be understood.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Correct. Yes, I mean that patience with the system and with people feels essential. And it's a sustainable change seems to require curiosity more than certainty. So for the leaders, right, who are listening, who feel stuck between pressure from above and frustration from their teams, what will be the one question they could sit with this week that might open up a different way forward?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, absolutely. And sorry, to the point you said before the summary was really lovely, and that systems are people. So that's why we have to work with change. Yeah. Um, what's the one question? What might be another explanation for what I'm seeing? The reason I say that is um with fundamental attribution uh error, it's very easy uh when I was a manager, when I was seeing uh people behaving not in the way that I wanted, to go, oh, they're just bad people. That's them. As opposed to saying, um, well, they just they just don't care as much as me. As opposed to me saying, what might be another explanation for the reason they behave they are? And that started to get me curious and help me realize that I'm attributing, there we go, attributing the most negative possible explanation for what I'm seeing. But there's probably other explanations that may be true. And given these are good people, I know they're good people. It's probably a much better explanation than I'm assigning to them. And through that curiosity, through that finding out, I start to understand another half of the story that I didn't understand before, and I actually realize the problem is coming from somewhere I

Exploring Change and Responsibility in Organizations

SPEAKER_00 16:15

didn't realize. And often as a manager, it was me through incentives that I may have set incorrectly. I think Peter Senge says that. Um, I can't remember his exact quote, but he basically says when the creators of systems realize that they are the ones that hold the power to change the system and are to blame for when it doesn't work, he says it much better than me. It's very sweet. It's scary to say, oh nuts as a manager, I created all these problems. It's not them, it's me. But it's also very empowering saying, Well, I can fix it now. Um so yeah. So when you uh when you don't see something expected, what are the other possible explanations, other one that you've already thought of, which is probably quite negative?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Exactly. Ooh, that's really amazing. And also, like when organizations struggle, it's really because people don't care. I mean, it's it's because the system hasn't been designed to let care turn into the progress, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So Yeah, your system's perfectly designed for the results it gets.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Exactly. So, Simon, like, I mean, for the listeners who want to explore your thinking, learn from your writing, or connect with your work, then where is the best place to find you?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

That's a very uh kind question, Abby. You can find me at CuriousCoffee.club, not dot com. I should have gone to .com, but dot club, or you can find me on Python and uh I'll have to learn from others that come say hello.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Amazing. I'll I'll put all the details and the links into the show notes to your listeners for your easy reference. And by the way, for me, our website is also.club, so do not uh forget to hit podpodub.club. Yeah. So yes, it's really amazing. And uh thank you so much for joining us on Mind Meets Machine. And I have to say one thing that if today's uh conversation actually sparked reflection about how your organization really works beneath the surface, then I invite you to sit with your insight and notice like what small experiments might be possible. Right. So until next time, this is your host, Avek, and this is Mind Meets Machine. Stay curious about both the mind and machines shaping your world. Thank you so much.